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Thread: MOA - Minutes Of Angle

  1. #1

    MOA - Minutes Of Angle

    I found this video by accident, while searching for something completely different. Maybe a lot of you guys know all about this, but I found it fascinating. I knew some of the basics, but NEVER put it all together the way this fellow explains it. I could say more here, but just go ahead and check out the video:



    I haven't used a scope very much. I sort of knew what I have to do to adjust a scope, but never knew how to do it other than by trial and error. This fellow makes it into a science (which I guess it really is!)

  2. #2
    The video you posted is a good one.

    Using and thinking in MOA is much more efficient than counting clicks! Especially at 1000 yards.

  3. #3
    ekliu
    Guest
    1000 yards is like 40 MOA. That's "only" 160 clicks.

  4. #4
    Thats if you are using .250 MOA clicks....double that if you have .125 clickers, lol.

    40 MOA @ 1K? That muzzle must be pointed in the sky, lol. My come up is around 24-25 moa depending on the range.

  5. #5
    Have any of you actually tried to shoot something at extreme distances?

    Maybe one of you can answer this. I always assumed that the law of gravity meant that if an object was falling, there is a fixed number which defines how far it would fall in any given amount of time. This should allow us to calculate the path of a bullet, if we knew its speed. So far so good - and I've always felt comfortable with that concept, even if I've never, ever, tried to use it.

    BUT - in the video, it is brought up that this path is not quite so simple. The bullet is slowing down as it flies through the air. I can believe that this is happening, but does this really effect the impact point of the bullet? I just don't get it - I must be missing something. Even if the bullet was slowing down, the time between firing the bullet and impact is so small, how can this have any noticeable effect on where the bullet hits?

    A simpler way to ask this question - if you fired your rifle at a target 1000 yards away, let's say it hit a certain point.

    If you had a way to do this in a vacuum (meaning no air to slow down the bullet), how much higher might the bullet now hit the target?

    I've got no idea if any "ordinary" person needs to know this, but I bet an Army sniper needs the information. (...and a related question, how does the shooter know or estimate the distance to target?).

  6. #6
    Yes, the speed definitely affect where the bullet impacts. Its dropping at the same time, so it needs to be compensated for by sight adjustment. The longer the distance, the more you need to adjust your scope. By doing this, your muzzle is being pointed above where you are holding you crosshair. The speed it not the only variable that affect the point of impact. Its one of them that is controlled though.

    Google jbm ballistics. You can calculate you ballistics accurately to get your load/caliber close at longer ranges. The calculator offers just about any bullet manufactured. This will atleast get you close given the accuracy of the variables inputted into the calculator.

    Wind deflection is probably the biggest challenge. Getting there is easy...getting there with precision is the challenge. A steady 10 MPH cross wind at 1000 yards would equal a miss if not compensated for.

    As for a vacuum, I doubt it would even work since the powder needs oxygen to burn.

    AI shot a 1K IBS shoot at a range in WV. They use clay birds sitting on a bank in front of the target frame to zero in on. The distance between them are several feet. Once zeroed in, a couple clicks are needed to center up on the record target. This does not sound like much, but when shooting for a 3" X ring, its huge. Precision and accuracy is the name of the game.

    Getting back to zeroing in on clay birds. They are laying on a soft loamy bank...so when you shoot and return you gun back to battery, you can see the impact splash in the dirt. There is that much of a delay from muzzle to 1k. A field situation may be different than a br setup where the gun gets pushed back to the same spot. A sniper in a field may not have this luxury. So in a field situation a spotter can watch and relay info back to the shooter. At certain times a spotter can see the vapor trail of the bullet in flight as well. Its amazing this fan be seen.

  7. #7
    Chuck, an accurate description of how I feel right now would be to compare this to someone who's been setting up their R/C car by "trial and error" forever, and just now learned about setup gauges and tweak boards. If MOA is so useful and important, I'm surprised that this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I would bet a cup of coffee that you're the only person in this forum who understood this.

    I'm going to buy a '22 target rifle with a good scope next week; it's something I can practice with all I want, for minimal dollars. I've got a question about this, which I'll ask in a minute. First a few other questions....

    You mention "jbm ballistics". This got me to http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballist...culators.shtml which seems to provide all the information as you suggested. My first thought is that this would make a great application for smart phones, so you could store all the data in your pocket. I can see I've got a lot more reading to do.

    Vacuum..... I just meant what the bullet would do without meeting air resistance. Regarding the powder, are you saying that guns wouldn't fire in a vacuum?

    For me, all this talk is theoretical. I've got to learn the basics - the idea of shooting anything at 1000 yards sounds more like "magic" than reality, but I know now that with the right equipment and training, it's possible. What was it like for you, the first time you did it? I wonder if Javier got that kind of training..... I suspect the only person reading this forum that is capable of doing this is you.

    Last, you talk about the delay when shooting at 1000 yards. If you had to estimate that, based on your past shooting, in terms of fractions of a second how long did it seem to take?



    Back to my question - I'm probably buying a 22 rifle from a relative next week. The question he is asking me is which scope I want with it. I will copy his email here - do I want one of these scopes, or should I just buy the gun and get a different scope you could recommend?


    The scope that came with the Acu-Bolt is a 4X (4 power) scope. 4X scopes are typically used in the field when plinking, or when hunting both small and large game. This is because one doesn’t need to be “competitively accurate, just “deadly accurate”. You can kill a tin can, a ground squirrel or a moose if you hit it with the appropriate caliber bullet, even if you are an inch or two off center. You cannot win a marksmanship competition when you are even 1” off center

    The first 40X rifle I got up here came with an 8 - 32 variable power scope. Shooting it at 50 or 100 yards I am always out at 32 power … as this way I see all my hits

    I got the 2nd 40X and immediately bought a scope … another 8 – 32 power scope made by Tru-Glo … a very nice, bright scope that has served me very well. I got my highest scores with this rifle
    I doubt that you would shoot at an indoor range at 32 power … but having more than 4 power would be really nice as far as I am concerned.

    When shooting at 100 yards I kept thinking … I wish I had a scope with a tad more power. So, I am thinking …
    If you wanted it, I would sell you the Tru-Glo scope for the same price I paid for it … an incredibly low sale price of $59. I would then buy a more powerful scope for my 2nd 40X

    I would think it best for you to look through them both to see the difference. I think if you looked, you would immediately understand. The Tru-Glo is much brighter than the scope that came with the gun, and with the power range … to me there is no comparison

    What would the positive be for you? When shooting at your range you would see every hole in the paper you made immediately by looking through the more powerful scope. That is how I check my shots out … I do not need a spotting scope even at 100 yards

    You could always shoot at 8X if you desire, which would give you a crisper image of your point of aim than 4X … and, should you ever go to an outdoor range, you could shoot at a higher power when at greater distance and you would have a distinct advantage over the 4X scope.

    The $59- price was a really good buy … and I have the bill of sale and the box. It comes with 2 sunshades … a 3” and a 5”


    From reading the above, would you have any suggestions? Or should I get a different scope entirelly? Now that I know about MOA, I think it would be interesting to test this out for real, rather than just reading about it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Chuck, an accurate description of how I feel right now would be to compare this to someone who's been setting up their R/C car by "trial and error" forever, and just now learned about setup gauges and tweak boards. If MOA is so useful and important, I'm surprised that this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I would bet a cup of coffee that you're the only person in this forum who understood this.
    Naaa...I bet a lot of people know about MOA. Lots of scope manufacturers use MOA to refer to adjustment and reticles.

    You mention "jbm ballistics". This got me to http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballist...culators.shtml which seems to provide all the information as you suggested. My first thought is that this would make a great application for smart phones, so you could store all the data in your pocket. I can see I've got a lot more reading to do.
    There are smartphone ballistic apps. I believe JBM even makes one for some phones. iphone only maybe?

    Vacuum..... I just meant what the bullet would do without meeting air resistance. Regarding the powder, are you saying that guns wouldn't fire in a vacuum?
    I'm not saying for sure, but in a total vacuum without oxygen, I don't see how they can fire. Something for Mythbusters...

    For me, all this talk is theoretical. I've got to learn the basics - the idea of shooting anything at 1000 yards sounds more like "magic" than reality, but I know now that with the right equipment and training, it's possible. What was it like for you, the first time you did it? I wonder if Javier got that kind of training..... I suspect the only person reading this forum that is capable of doing this is you.
    I'm definitely not the only person capable of doing this. With the right equipment, anyone can shoot 1K. When I first shot it, I was shooting at clay birds sitting on a back stop. I had a spotter, but he told me to push the gun back to battery and I might be able to see the hit. Sure enough, I was able to do so.

    Last, you talk about the delay when shooting at 1000 yards. If you had to estimate that, based on your past shooting, in terms of fractions of a second how long did it seem to take?
    To guess, I'd say about 1.5 seconds.


    Back to my question - I'm probably buying a 22 rifle from a relative next week. The question he is asking me is which scope I want with it. I will copy his email here - do I want one of these scopes, or should I just buy the gun and get a different scope you could recommend?


    The scope that came with the Acu-Bolt is a 4X (4 power) scope. 4X scopes are typically used in the field when plinking, or when hunting both small and large game. This is because one doesn’t need to be “competitively accurate, just “deadly accurate”. You can kill a tin can, a ground squirrel or a moose if you hit it with the appropriate caliber bullet, even if you are an inch or two off center. You cannot win a marksmanship competition when you are even 1” off center

    The first 40X rifle I got up here came with an 8 - 32 variable power scope. Shooting it at 50 or 100 yards I am always out at 32 power … as this way I see all my hits

    I got the 2nd 40X and immediately bought a scope … another 8 – 32 power scope made by Tru-Glo … a very nice, bright scope that has served me very well. I got my highest scores with this rifle
    I doubt that you would shoot at an indoor range at 32 power … but having more than 4 power would be really nice as far as I am concerned.

    When shooting at 100 yards I kept thinking … I wish I had a scope with a tad more power. So, I am thinking …
    If you wanted it, I would sell you the Tru-Glo scope for the same price I paid for it … an incredibly low sale price of $59. I would then buy a more powerful scope for my 2nd 40X

    I would think it best for you to look through them both to see the difference. I think if you looked, you would immediately understand. The Tru-Glo is much brighter than the scope that came with the gun, and with the power range … to me there is no comparison

    What would the positive be for you? When shooting at your range you would see every hole in the paper you made immediately by looking through the more powerful scope. That is how I check my shots out … I do not need a spotting scope even at 100 yards

    You could always shoot at 8X if you desire, which would give you a crisper image of your point of aim than 4X … and, should you ever go to an outdoor range, you could shoot at a higher power when at greater distance and you would have a distinct advantage over the 4X scope.

    The $59- price was a really good buy … and I have the bill of sale and the box. It comes with 2 sunshades … a 3” and a 5”


    From reading the above, would you have any suggestions? Or should I get a different scope entirelly? Now that I know about MOA, I think it would be interesting to test this out for real, rather than just reading about it.
    I have a Savage Mark II BTVS and I have a Weaver V16 4-16x on mine. It isn't bad. One thing with a scope on a 22, you need to make sure the parallax can go down pretty low. I think my Weaver will focus down to 30ft. Most regular rifle scopes with an adjustable objective will only focus down so far. I know Leupold makes scopes just for 22's. They set the parallax for shorter distances. Personally, I would not buy a scope that you can't adjust the parallax on. If you really want a good scope, check out the Leupold 6.5-20 EFR. A Weaver T36 would be another nice choice. Lots of 22 benchrest shooters use the Weaver.

  9. #9
    As for parallax, google parallax adjustment or parallax correction. There are tons of info that explain parallax correction and how important it is. Alot of shooters take it for granted that the markings on the scope correspond with the right adjustment. Not true. From day to day changes in condition, the parallax needs corrected. I correct mine each time I shoot. The mark I have on my scope is close, but still needs to be fine tuned. Once you read up on it and understand, you will know what I'm talking about. Its kinda hard for me to explain, but would be so much easier to show you with hands on and explain what is going on.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ridgewaybodies View Post
    I have a Savage Mark II BTVS and I have a Weaver V16 4-16x on mine. It isn't bad. One thing with a scope on a 22, you need to make sure the parallax can go down pretty low.....
    You would crack up laughing if I told you what I first thought you meant by this.... and I'll save me the embarrassment of looking like a complete fool by not telling you. Wow. Was I guessing WRONG!!! OK, on to a real reply....

    Hint: parallax correction in photography is when you look up or down, perhaps at a building, and vertical lines get twisted so they're pointing to some "vanishing point". To me, "that" is parallax. er, was.



    I went to the website with the great article on safes, and found this:
    http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html

    If I understand this correctly, if the "target" is at some pre-set distance for any given scope, there will be no parallax error.
    Also, if you keep your eye centered in the scope, there will be no parallax error.

    If the target is closer to, or further away from this ideal distance, AND if your eye isn't centered in the scope, the image you "see" will not be perfectly accurate.


    So, if your eye isn't exactly lined up with the center of the scope, unless the target is at some distance the scope was designed for, you won't be seeing an accurate sight image unless you correct it.

    So, with this thought in mind, I found another web page:
    http://www.larrywillis.com/tip015.html

    This is all starting to make sense. If while looking through the scope, you move your head right to left, and up and down, if the cross hairs in the scope seem to "move" on the target, this is due to parallax, and by adjusting the parallax, you can eliminate this error at a particular distance setting. It's one thing to "understand" and another to "do". Maybe I can try this out next week.

    Thank you for posting - it's yet one more thing that I knew absolutely NOTHING about until just now.


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